tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post592172459042799985..comments2023-06-01T09:22:18.917+01:00Comments on Liturgiae Causa: Old Sarum...Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-58273892115796366042010-10-14T09:48:00.211+01:002010-10-14T09:48:00.211+01:00Were the famous St Cyprian's photographs of a ...Were the famous St Cyprian's photographs of a recontruction? I had always been led to believe that they were simply staged photographs and had never heard any suggestion to the contrary. This would certainly explain Moretben's observation. The Gild of Clerks did their own versions of these in the same place a few years back. Comparing the two sets, it is interesting to note that some of the interior decor of St Cyprian's had not yet been completed at the time of the first set.<br /><br />It was also the Gild of Clerks who did the reconstructions of the York Requiem mass in 2002, I think, and the York Corpus Christi mass in 2004, and the Sarum Assumption mass in 2007. I took part in the latter two.<br /><br />I broadly agree with much of what you say in this post, Patrick, and, as a long-time lover of Sarum, and as one who rejoices in its authorisation for use in Orthodoxy, I think you would be somewhat pleased with some of its elements. The hymn <i>inventor rutili</i>, sung during the procession of light at the paschal vigil, is particularly beautiful, both in terms of the words and the melody. The Sarum exultet chant is also infinitely superior to the Roman one - clearly with the same basis but with greater elaboration. On <a href="http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Western.html" rel="nofollow">Father Aidan's website</a>, there is a recording of part of it being sung by me about 6 or 7 years ago, when I was just learning chant. It was never intended for long-term public consumption but he thought it was worthy of his website.Bbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10989307876421460920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-32273709912106373872010-10-11T17:24:32.372+01:002010-10-11T17:24:32.372+01:00Thanks for this post.
Very informative and interes...Thanks for this post.<br />Very informative and interesting.<br />I do agree we have lost much with "minimalism" within the Roman Rite...this gives a great insight into the need for returning to proper liturgical Tradition; pray God it will, in time, happen.Fr. John Mary, ISJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13093937327145346752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-60292191725998481202010-10-09T22:13:03.574+01:002010-10-09T22:13:03.574+01:00Sounds like Greek liturgy to me
You're right....<i>Sounds like Greek liturgy to me</i><br /><br />You're right. Especially the beasts. ;0)Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-11824089349620471262010-10-09T21:54:49.021+01:002010-10-09T21:54:49.021+01:00And why is the subdeacon sporting a tree stuck dow...And why is the subdeacon sporting a tree stuck down the back of his neck? - or it it an extravagantly Sarum mohican?Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-24614847445488065612010-10-09T21:17:46.188+01:002010-10-09T21:17:46.188+01:00"The pictures are nice, but very clinical. Sa..."The pictures are nice, but very clinical. Sarum, in reality, was "dirty" - inveterately untidy and thoroughly non-respectable - people wandering around all over the place, doing this, that, and the other; ambling up to the bishop at this throne, during the liturgy, and asking him stuff; deacons arriving and departing apparently at random; beasts in the narthex, bellowing and shitting."<br /><br />Sounds like Greek liturgy to me - meant as a great compliment!<br /><br />I agree the pics are clinical but ruddy good nonetheless (obviously under the MP).Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-72833043605202861842010-10-09T20:19:55.120+01:002010-10-09T20:19:55.120+01:00The pictures are nice, but very clinical. Sarum, i...The pictures are nice, but very clinical. Sarum, in reality, was "dirty" - inveterately untidy and thoroughly non-respectable - people wandering around all over the place, doing this, that, and the other; ambling up to the bishop at this throne, during the liturgy, and asking him stuff; deacons arriving and departing apparently at random; beasts in the narthex, bellowing and shitting.<br /><br />That's real liturgy.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-926714567038426462010-10-09T16:42:37.842+01:002010-10-09T16:42:37.842+01:00Your competence on Thursday demonstrated your expe...Your competence on Thursday demonstrated your experienceMagister, SSIMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17699440002491009401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-84021371004175180442010-10-09T16:39:51.242+01:002010-10-09T16:39:51.242+01:00And by the way Thursday was not my first time as t...And by the way Thursday was not my first time as the MC of High Mass.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-39360252538795419012010-10-09T16:38:36.025+01:002010-10-09T16:38:36.025+01:00Rubricarius, yes Sarum is no more native to this c...Rubricarius, yes Sarum is no more native to this country than the Roman Rite. Which makes me wonder about what sort of Liturgy St Bede experienced. The general thrust of his Ecclesiastical History is the debate between the Roman and Celtic factions about the date of Easter, and St Bede was adamant on the Roman side...<br /><br />Magister, no no lace for me - if it appears so it is an illusion created by the lighting.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-12873728260561789352010-10-09T16:34:47.349+01:002010-10-09T16:34:47.349+01:00No lace cotta adorned the MC at Blackfen then, nor...No lace cotta adorned the MC at Blackfen then, nor big six upon gradines? Whilst I would delight to see the historical rites of Sarum, York, Durham and Lincoln int al celebrated, what was done at Blackfen the other evening and the Baroque splendour of the liturgy at the London Oratory serve us well as glimpses of heavenMagister, SSIMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17699440002491009401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-56553271806031309902010-10-09T16:33:08.320+01:002010-10-09T16:33:08.320+01:00Sarum is a regional variant of the French rites th...Sarum is a regional variant of the French rites that developed from the Old Roman Rite, i.e. the rite of the parish churches of Rome which is the ancestor of Sarum, Hereford, York etc along with many of the rites used by the Religious. The 1570 Roman rite is a descendent from the reformed liturgy of the curia which was a 'streamlined' use for busy people. Do look at 'The Orgins of the Modern Roman Liturgy', Van Dijk & Hazelden-Walker (to which I think I have referred you before). By 'Modern' they mean 13C to 16C. Sarum is not a 'sister' rite to the the Tridentine rite but rather a cousin or a great-great-great uncle to use a family-tree metaphor.<br /><br />In Sarum additional candles were placed near the altar but not on it on greater days. I think it was Dr. Wickham-Legg who published a survey of various Medieval Uses showing the almost universal use of two candles on the altar or even one. Candles on the altar had a purely practical function - that of providing light (c.f. use of the <i>scotula</i>). By the late Medieval period candles had acquired all sorts of meaning so, e.g. the 1474 MR has Masses with thousands of years' indulgence for lighting three candles or seven etc.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-16440231431108866882010-10-09T16:16:33.180+01:002010-10-09T16:16:33.180+01:00Rubricarius, thanks for your comment. I just think...Rubricarius, thanks for your comment. I just think the Roman Rite is rather bland compared with Sarum. The photo above was a deliberate choice to illustrate the procession to the Altar with the Gifts - something no longer in the Roman Rite (except, ironically, in its modern form!)<br /><br />Regarding the ''big six'', I seem to remember reading in Duffy (The Voices of Morebath I think, or possibly Stripping of the Altars) something about six brass candlesticks being removed from a parish church around 1550 but I can't for the life of me remember the details (otherwise I'd have included this in the post). So it seems that the custom in England before the Reformation was nebulous - anything from 0 candles to 6 (unless this was an isolated case completely).Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-18888889332547339132010-10-09T16:03:15.865+01:002010-10-09T16:03:15.865+01:00I do not think the rather beautiful celebration ph...I do not think the rather beautiful celebration photographed at St. Cyprian's was ever meant to be be a reconstruction of the Sarum rite but BCP in 'Sarumesque' one might say. It certainly looks good and if you search YouTube for 'York Rite' you will find something very similar celebrated a couple of years ago.<br /><br />In the Roman rite the 'big six' are not meant to stay on the altar every day. The <i>Caeremoniale</i> lays down what is supposed to be done in Liber I, Cap. XII, ## 11 & 24.<br /><br />Two candlesticks (<i>candelae in candelabris</i> for simple feasts and ferial days; four candles for Vigils, Ember Days, the ferial days of Advent and Lent and other days four, and for Sundays and feasts six.<br /><br />Westminster Cathedral used to light the required number of candles but did not remove the other candlesticks. Fr. Clement Russell at St. George's Sudbury used to have arguments with some Westminster VG. He was told to put six candles on his high altar. I understand he got the CE out and told the VG that he would put six on his altar if every parish took the required number off their altars on other days etc. Sarum only ever had two lights upon the altar - having more is relatively late. There is a rubric in the Gradual which says how many cantors one should have (c.f. 'rulers' in the English Uses etc) which too is ignored of courseRubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-41978378616744625152010-10-09T15:51:10.814+01:002010-10-09T15:51:10.814+01:00Sorry Maureen I meant to include a link in the pos...Sorry Maureen I meant to include a link in the post but forgot. The post has been amended now.<br /><br />The photos come from an Alcuin Club publication called Ceremonial Pictured in Photographs. The link is in the amended post.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-77677717893611999452010-10-09T15:46:25.927+01:002010-10-09T15:46:25.927+01:00Where did you get the picture?Where did you get the picture?Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03580856325657683194noreply@blogger.com