tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post2029961003285641410..comments2023-06-01T09:22:18.917+01:00Comments on Liturgiae Causa: ''Summa Liturgica''...Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-26321282336756677642015-02-02T23:59:41.033+00:002015-02-02T23:59:41.033+00:00I was not arguing; I was bolstering the point you ...I was not arguing; I was bolstering the point you made, saying, "these rules were a 'mark of identity.'" I think my point can be found in the last sentence of my previous post.A. T. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816243030572765014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-84916005690795538072015-02-02T21:56:23.560+00:002015-02-02T21:56:23.560+00:00I do not question the benefits of communal fasting...I do not question the benefits of communal fasting - fasting is an apostolic and good work - but any blessings one might otherwise gain from participating are surely obviated by it being done in public?Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-25817799065465521622015-02-02T21:51:02.863+00:002015-02-02T21:51:02.863+00:00Evelyn Waugh and Mary Douglas (Natural Symbols) bo...Evelyn Waugh and Mary Douglas (<i>Natural Symbols</i>) both speak of the unifying factors in communal fasting. Douglas points to the "Bog Irish" in England who lost their Catholic identity after the fasting regulations were lifted in the 1960s. Granted, if eating fish on Fridays is the only thing holding a faith-community together, I think there is a fundamental problem. A. T. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816243030572765014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-8845747018595363472015-02-02T20:47:15.835+00:002015-02-02T20:47:15.835+00:00I read an article in The Telegraph a few years ago...I read an article in The Telegraph a few years ago in which the Bishop of Arundel and Brighton called upon his diocese to set reminders on their phones and set aside moments for prayer and penance at work or some other public place for the new Friday abstinence rules; the very same who said that these rules were a "mark of identity." I don't know about you but I can't think of a worse reason to fast!<br /><br />They have their reward, saith the LORD.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-29549795769821529362015-02-02T20:40:45.371+00:002015-02-02T20:40:45.371+00:00Yes, I always thought it rather ironic that immedi...Yes, I always thought it rather ironic that immediately after hearing Jesus's words, "anoint your head and wash your face, that your fasting may not be seen by men," we sully our faces so that "the world knows we're Catholics," as we often hear in homilies.A. T. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816243030572765014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-38154950084636502792015-02-02T20:37:08.185+00:002015-02-02T20:37:08.185+00:00Leaving a mark is also theologically questionable,...Leaving a mark is also theologically questionable, viz. Christ's words about praying to the Father in secret.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-46541071138965716332015-02-02T20:02:39.401+00:002015-02-02T20:02:39.401+00:00And they can't even get the Imposition of Ashe...And they can't even get the Imposition of Ashes right any more. The Ashes are supposed to be sprinkled over the head. The 'smudge' misses the point - and the mark - completely. I have even seen a stamp made of cork that is dipped into 'Ash paste' and imprints a Maltese cross on the recipients' foreheads. I suppose at least it was cork and not a potato... Everything reduced to minimalism.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-67976035047815159132015-02-02T18:18:22.005+00:002015-02-02T18:18:22.005+00:00Well, see, with the hours no one gets any stuff! Y...Well, see, with the hours no one gets any stuff! You come to Mass, you get "the wafer"; you come to Ash Wednesday, you get a smudge of dirt on your forehead; you come to Palm Sunday, you get a flimsy palm frond; you come on St. Blaise Day, you get a candle showed in your face; you get an adoration chapel, you get time to read the diocesan newspaper!A. T. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816243030572765014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-47200515301550474672015-02-02T17:13:34.341+00:002015-02-02T17:13:34.341+00:00Like I said, flogging a dead horse. If you propose...Like I said, flogging a dead horse. If you proposed to any of them the idea of celebrating public hours the likelihood is you'd be greeted with scorn. Surely this means that something has gone terribly, horribly wrong?Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-27223453309066760582015-02-02T16:02:19.704+00:002015-02-02T16:02:19.704+00:00I live in a diocese of half a million Catholics, w...I live in a diocese of half a million Catholics, where the average parish of 10,000 members has three or four priests and a deacon or two. Not a single parish offers the public celebration of the divine office, not one! Five masses on a Sunday and two on Saturday night and throw in a few Spanish and Vietnamese masses, too. But no hours. Perpetual adoration, yes, and rosary novenas, but no hours.A. T. Wallacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02816243030572765014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-562728579991079892015-02-02T15:26:10.251+00:002015-02-02T15:26:10.251+00:00Exactly. Even if they put on cassock and surplice ...Exactly. Even if they put on cassock and surplice and did a said service together it would be at least something.<br /><br />I once saw a priest reading out of what I presume was a Liturgia Horarum book on a tube train.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-66510526060299389802015-02-02T14:52:20.212+00:002015-02-02T14:52:20.212+00:00What I've never understood, is why clerics in ...What I've never understood, is why clerics in parishes with 3/4 priests don't pray the office in choir in the parish church every day, never mind holydays - if they have the obligation anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-22290011789287751352015-02-02T13:24:23.157+00:002015-02-02T13:24:23.157+00:00I do allow liturgical development but it has to be...I do allow liturgical development but it has to be at the behest and under the patronage of a competent authority. The Papacy is demonstrably not that. Fortescue likes to lead us all to believe that the Roman Rite was "fossilized" after the Tridentine synod. That is a gross simplification of the period, which was marked by decadence, decline and decay. Apart from the realm of sacred music the only additions to liturgy from the late 16th century onward worth mentioning have been superstitious, devotional elements such as the incorporation of Benediction and the cult of reserved Sacrament into the liturgy for the Triduum; the rite of Benediction itself and the Forty Hours Prayer. Otherwise, the entire period is marked by a conspicuous, almost systematic neglect. The new Religious Orders of the Counter Reformation invariably eschewed liturgical rites; the Jesuits being the most notorious - but you can read Taft, himself a Jesuit and eminent liturgical scholar, for an interesting apologia for them in this respect. Strange as this may sound, I actually admire the Jesuits (possibly because I came from a Jesuit-run college).<br /><br />The principles of liturgical development should always be directed to how much can be preserved of the old and how much we are willing to work to do that. You may be surprised to learn that I called for a directive from Rome dispensing priests from the "obligation" of reciting Divine Office. The reason for that is that there are no synodical decrees that mandate private recitation (at least none of which I am aware or was aware at the time of writing this), and it is technically a liturgical abuse. Liturgy means public work and if liturgy is to endue Christ's faithful with any catholicity, holiness or scriptural principle it must surely be sung publicly. The resources required for a celebration of Mass are surely more than those required for a celebration of Terce before Sunday Mass? I would welcome and support any RC parish that decided to celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours on Sundays and Holydays.<br /><br />Unfortunately, we're flogging a dead horse. Private devotions and superstitious pieties have taken over what space the liturgy should have filled in the hearts of the vast majority of simple Roman Catholics. And what help are the Traddies in this respect? None whatsoever. On the contrary, the few times they organise any liturgy other than Mass it's invariably Vespers with Benediction added on and what of these ridiculous "rosary days of reparation," or whatever they're called? Novena prayers and chaplets. How does this help anyone?Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-44646637735396668652015-02-02T12:28:01.080+00:002015-02-02T12:28:01.080+00:00As a newcomer to this blog this is my first readin...As a newcomer to this blog this is my first reading of the re-posted article, this Litany of Bad Papal Interference. Sympathetic as I am, I have to ask: if development of the liturgy lies with the bishop, what are the sound principles of Traditional liturgical development (derived maybe from the development of the Oriental rites, and the Roman rite in late antiquity), and what the Roman rite would look like if they had been applied. It can't be (or is it?) your belief that the liturgy is an unalterable given, to which no addition or revision is to be allowed by an arch-hierarch - such a view in itself would be very untraditional surely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-9834357865406383962015-02-02T09:32:18.759+00:002015-02-02T09:32:18.759+00:00Welcome back, Patrick. I really do appreciate your...Welcome back, Patrick. I really do appreciate your reflections on the liturgy, though I no longer use the Roman rite (but Sarum in its place).Fr Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15521671841072661886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-50941100394098138372012-10-16T01:20:58.418+01:002012-10-16T01:20:58.418+01:00Do you think the Apostles used whatever particular...Do you think the Apostles used whatever particular liturgy you idealize, Patricius? If not, then you too seem to approve of novelty. I am no friend of the current incarnation of the Mass, but it seems bizarre to suggest that all change is heresy. The very construction of churches constituted an innovation! Certainly, the saying of the Nicene Creed was unknown prior to the the Council. And so on . . . Tradition need not be static. There is a difference between legitimate evolution within an established framework and radical revolution, isn't there?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-48240295631545837102010-07-01T19:07:49.249+01:002010-07-01T19:07:49.249+01:00It has occurred to me that we may be watching an e...It has occurred to me that we may be watching an example of this in "real time"; I cannot be alone in having noticed a definite momentum building in response to the old liberal agenda for the relaxation of presbyteral celibacy. Pressure appears to be building in favour of establishing an <i>ontological</i> basis for priestly celibacy, flat contrary to scripture and tradition. Somebody or other gave a widely publicised lecture hinting at this at the Vatican recently, which was widely and favourably quoted by "conservative" RC priest-bloggers. Human nature being what it is, celibate clerics are unlikely to mount massive resistance to something that seems to raise their state to new levels of dignity.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-81648688712838071252010-06-26T14:06:13.795+01:002010-06-26T14:06:13.795+01:00Dominic Mary, the ''development of doctrin...Dominic Mary, the ''development of doctrine'' is a fond fancy, about which I might post soon enough. I have never in my whole life been able to understand the concept - at least as Newman expounded it. He might as well have said that essential Doctrine itself is mutable to meet the needs of the age, or certain circumstances. Why, if the Church is in dialogue with Jews or Muslims, not abandon belief in the Blessed Trinity for instance?<br /><br />I must agree with Moretben that there are no special needs to meet. The Church's Liturgy and Doctrine should remain constant and the same for all time. Always and everywhere.<br /><br />New = Heresy.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-21424907238340338622010-06-26T09:28:26.704+01:002010-06-26T09:28:26.704+01:00Dominic Mary
Here is Father Stephen - as uncannil...Dominic Mary<br /><br />Here is Father Stephen - as uncannily apropos as ever:<br /><br />http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/tradition-and-the-heart/Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-65949246371447502962010-06-26T08:26:58.149+01:002010-06-26T08:26:58.149+01:00DM
What would these "needs" be? What d...DM<br /><br />What would these "needs" be? What does any age require, other than what was delivered once and for all? What do we need that isn't in Christ - the same yesterday, today and forever? It's not a rhetorical question - I'd be grateful if you could perhaps expand a little. I genuinely believe that this way of thinking, which seems to be taken absolutely for granted in "the West" is a colossal mistake.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-77375559206746051352010-06-25T22:23:26.671+01:002010-06-25T22:23:26.671+01:00However, if 'New = Heresy', then by coroll...However, if 'New = Heresy', then by corollary no development can ever take place, because it must involve some element of newness - which is the same as saying that the Church's teaching can never develop to meet the needs of the age . . . a doctrine of which I am, I fear, unconvinced.Dominic Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514722976964423091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-69462386689274939582010-06-25T20:00:12.542+01:002010-06-25T20:00:12.542+01:00F.G.S.A, no I have never read anything by Lanfranc...F.G.S.A, no I have never read anything by Lanfranc, although Belloc says he was a genius (knew Greek too, a rare achievement in those days). I am actually reading Durandus and George Orwell presently.<br /><br />Moretben, very succinct and very true.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-40855251865825569972010-06-25T17:52:34.588+01:002010-06-25T17:52:34.588+01:00Pio Nono - "I am Tradition"
Mediator Dei...Pio Nono - "I am Tradition"<br />Mediator Dei - "I am the Liturgy"<br />Humani Generis - "I am the Fathers"Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-74737232461523565612010-06-25T16:30:05.170+01:002010-06-25T16:30:05.170+01:00Have you read Liber de Sanguine et Corpore Domini ...Have you read Liber de Sanguine et Corpore Domini of Lanfranc and the work of the same name of Paschasius Radbertus? I personnally haven't and would greatly like to. The first is available on google books. It would seem that these works propound the sacrificial reality of the Eucharist against the metaphorical interpretations of Berengar, Ratramnus,etc(the 'Negationists'- heretics are much 'Negationists'- negating Tradition). Now, Paschasius vindicated Transubstantiation on the authority of the Fathers, notably Ambrose. Keeping the spirit of the Fathers in all matters...Osmund Kilrule https://www.blogger.com/profile/07031929350172992367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-37251180598854161012010-06-25T13:34:57.021+01:002010-06-25T13:34:57.021+01:00F.G.S.A, there is of course no ''quick-fix...F.G.S.A, there is of course no ''quick-fix'' solution to the problem, which is a problem that goes back centuries.<br /><br />For the time being I would suggest that priests use liturgical books prior to 1854 with the pre-Urban VIII Office hymnody. But I have no long-term plan which seems practical, and I doubt that most Traditionalists would accept it.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.com