tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post5302706023314158678..comments2023-06-01T09:22:18.917+01:00Comments on Liturgiae Causa: Am I not, or am I?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-78016465802671005602014-02-07T21:33:50.179+00:002014-02-07T21:33:50.179+00:00It was my blessed good fortune to have met both Pa...It was my blessed good fortune to have met both Paddy Hassett and Fr Charles-Roux, but I didn't know that story. It's a good one!Ben Whitworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00499311491843942923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-8280372687914500032014-01-29T13:42:01.652+00:002014-01-29T13:42:01.652+00:00As the SRC, of unhappy memory, used to respond:
A...As the SRC, of unhappy memory, used to respond:<br /><br />Ad (1) Negative;<br />Ad 2) Negative.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-58742023635539247922014-01-29T13:28:42.154+00:002014-01-29T13:28:42.154+00:00The difference, I think, is in terms of legitimate...The difference, I think, is in terms of legitimate use of authority, whether at parish level or papal level. If a parish priest takes it upon himself to arbitrarily cut out bits of the service he thinks is not pastorally expedient (or some other reason), that's his sin and the deprivation of a salvific mystery inherent to the liturgy for his congregation. If, on the other hand, the pope says "this tradition is no longer lawful," and then goes so far as to threaten with excommunication anybody who doesn't believe him, then there is a very serious problem. The questions I would ask are: 1, is such (mis)use of authority for the good of the Church and of souls and 2, does that authority come from on high in the first place?Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-2476302577942537782014-01-29T13:20:08.486+00:002014-01-29T13:20:08.486+00:00In my view matters such as what sticheri, tropar a...In my view matters such as what sticheri, tropar and the like to omit or otherwise; and the degree of fullness of the odes of the canon at Mattins etc is a different issue to the matter raised in this post. Has not the principle of Byzantine rite parish worship always been to do the best one can with the available resources? Whilst I am firmly opposed to the idea of the arbitrary shortening of services, in any rite, I would wager that even the worst Byzantine rite parish celebration is going to be far superior to all but very best Western traditionalists can offer.<br /><br />Patricius’ comment about using a pre-1911 or pre-Clementine Breviary is a good one. Those who would accuse some of us of being ‘extreme’ or of ‘nitpicking’ argue that the differences between the pre-Conciliar books are but trifles and matters of detail and don’t really matter. If that is the case one might reasonably ask what then is wrong with using, for example, a pre-1911 Breviary if is – according to promoters of the ‘but details’ view’ – essentially the same as the 1961BR? Of course, the real reason is nothing to do with details but the on-going revisionism of the Traddieland script. Simply put if the changes were before the SVC they must be OK and if they came after the same then they are wicked, nasty, Protestant etc. The sorry story of how the 'liturgical books of 1962' have come to such unhappy prominence has been told elsewhere but, ultimately, that process has been about deciding that the SVC is the problem and exonerating the pre-Conciliar popes of any responsibility for their actions and in the process enriching the myth that the high Ultramontanist model of late nineteenth century and twentieth century.<br />Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-41019212314033735372014-01-28T13:25:40.450+00:002014-01-28T13:25:40.450+00:00Modestinus, I think I understand your position bet...Modestinus, I think I understand your position better now. I think it's hard to strike a true evangelical balance when it comes to taking liturgical dispositions. Is it, for example, morally superior to use which version of which Breviary? There is a danger there of losing sight of our need for God's Grace as sinners just like everybody else.<br /><br />Why not use a pre-1911 Breviary? Or, preferably, a pre-Clementine edition. That's if you want the Roman Rite. There's always Sarum!Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-69928530028751800222014-01-28T05:53:41.284+00:002014-01-28T05:53:41.284+00:00I, too, feel a similar ongoing exile from Christia...I, too, feel a similar ongoing exile from Christianity, even though I am an Episcopalian in the US. Religion. Why do we have to make it so hard for each other?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-17706331783117434822014-01-28T02:07:08.569+00:002014-01-28T02:07:08.569+00:00I suppose, in the end, I don't follow all of t...I suppose, in the end, I don't follow all of the liturgical nitpicking, but maybe one gets tired of it after spending so many years around the Byzantine Rite (Catholic or Orthodox). Byzantine liturgy is a mess, but that doesn't mean it isn't beautiful. The problem is that the mess is obscured from the eyes of most beholders because of the sheer complexity of the rite, to say nothing of the language barrier. (When I didn't worship in an English-language environment, the dominant tongue was Church Slavonic, though the Ukrainian Catholic Church has pretty much moved away from that now.) I have been to Vigils (Vespers, Matins, First Hour) where entire sections of the Psalter were omitted, the canons were abbreviated, a litany or two was squeezed out, etc., and the people around me thought it was the most ornate, complete, and indefectible thing they've ever seen. My view? It was a hasty chop-shop approach to the service and if we're going to stand there for 2 1/2 hours, we might as well be there for the full 3.<br /><br />Thankfully I have moved on a bit from that view, not because I don't think these things shouldn't matter, but because making them matter too much can become, well, an idol. I agree with you and Rubricarius that the 1962 liturgical books are inferior to, say, the 1954 books. That is why, when I pray the Breviary, I pray out of my 1945 Benziger Brothers edition (with the Vulgate!). Thanks to Rubricarius' <i>Ordo</i>, which I received in the mail today, the matter is made much simpler. With that said, I go to Mass according to the 1962 books because, well, that's what is in play at the moment, and I will take the 1962 Mass over no Mass or the Novus Ordo Mass. (Similarly, I would take an abbreviated vernacular Divine Liturgy over the Novus Ordo as well.) Is it perfect? Naw. But then again, Polish clergy mumbling Church Slavonic under their breath so the congregation couldn't hear in the decades following the Union of Brest wasn't perfect either, but still there was Grace. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-79656381376362006862014-01-27T20:54:42.370+00:002014-01-27T20:54:42.370+00:00I should like to have met Paddy; from what you hav...I should like to have met Paddy; from what you have told me of him he strikes me as having been a thoroughly decent man, and quite a character! I'm sure he had many interesting stories to tell.<br /><br />Paul VI strikes me as having been a rather weak, uninteresting man. I don't dislike him; in fact I actually quite like the popes of the period 1958-2005, but I get the impression that he'd have been blown down by a stiff breeze. I'm afraid that on that point I would have disagreed with Paddy as I don't think that Paul VI was "great" by any stretch of the imagination.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-1691369896873091322014-01-27T20:45:36.974+00:002014-01-27T20:45:36.974+00:00Patricius, Your namesake, whom we have discussed,...Patricius, Your namesake, whom we have discussed, Paddy (Patrick) Hassett of blessed memory, used to serve Fr. Charles-Roux on weekdays - often having spent many hours with the Rector and lots of whisky. Paddy, whose self-confessed apotheois was concelebrating with his hero Paul VI, used to have two images in the grubby, study missal he always carried: one of Paul VI and one of the Emperor Hirohito (sp.?). On one feast of the Transfiguration he approached Fr. Charles-Roux and said 'Today is the anniversary of the death of the great Paul VI. Paddy was, unusually, rather shocked when Fr. Charles-Roux responded 'Good.'Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-74572287513792239312014-01-27T20:36:16.270+00:002014-01-27T20:36:16.270+00:00Thank you, Rubricarius, for your correction and I ...Thank you, Rubricarius, for your correction and I defer, of course, to your superior knowledge. I had quite forgotten about Cunningham.<br /><br />I never met Fr Charles-Roux.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-23721616006459356782014-01-27T20:25:17.053+00:002014-01-27T20:25:17.053+00:00Patricius,
A little point of detail, if I may: Fr...Patricius,<br /><br />A little point of detail, if I may: Fr. Charles-Roux was never the Rector at St. Etheldreda's but a priest in residence there. The less said about the Rector when Fr. Charles-Roux was resident, Kit Cunningham, the better after the disgrace of his 'kiddy fiddling' in Africa years ago coming to light and him returning his OBE to our most Gracious Sovereign Lady. Fr. Charles-Roux was always enigmatic, and absolutely charming. Back in the early '90s I used to often serve his Mass on Sundays. He did not follow the 1962MR but a curious mixture of pre- and post-Pacelli - e.g. he would celebrate Octaves 'on request'. I understand he is still living in Rome, now in his late nineties. I last met him at a party and he was in excellent form.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-65081934341573346832014-01-27T19:27:08.541+00:002014-01-27T19:27:08.541+00:00Thank you for the explanation, Patricius! Although...Thank you for the explanation, Patricius! Although baptised an Anglican, I'm not English and so my history of England and knowledge of the (English) Prayer Book is hazy. From what you say, it does seem amiss that the Ordinariate 'does nothing' as you put it.<br /><br />Regarding the people understanding the language of worship, I can agree mostly, provided that language is at least reverent (i.e. it has become sacralised) and not the nauseatingly gauche vernacular of some modern 'liturgical' texts!Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17605146531776846589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-65582891738661324972014-01-27T18:16:22.323+00:002014-01-27T18:16:22.323+00:00Mark, a language understanded of the people is sim...Mark, a language understanded of the people is simply an evangelical principle. Reason is one of the pillars of the Church of England (or was).<br /><br />The annual commemorations at the Banqueting House are under the auspices of the Society of King Charles the Martyr, an Anglo-Catholic devotional society founded in the 19th century in response to Queen Victoria's decision to remove the martyrdom from the Prayer Book kalendar. One of its patrons is Fr Charles-Roux, some time rector of St Etheldreda's, Ely Place.<br /><br />St Charles was the last saint canonized by the Church of England. When the Provinces of Canterbury and York came together in 1660 after the tumultuous years of the Civil War and Protectorate they immediately added his name to the sanctorale at the revision of the Prayer Book. I think that St Charles forms an essential part of Anglican patrimony and identity and find it scandalous that the Ordinariate does nothing to perpetuate his legacy.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-57698240065741422632014-01-27T18:04:55.361+00:002014-01-27T18:04:55.361+00:00Those "terrible people" do exist indeed;...Those "terrible people" do exist indeed; I can vouch for you there. Though we should all be careful of turning into our own versions of terrible people, for it is easily done. Obsession, rigidity and brittleness are among the ingredients.<br /><br />Your point about needing to understand the language one is worshipping in is a well-made one. There are plenty 'traddies' who would equally-well mangle Latin, though a sacral language is something important, even if only from the purely psychological perspective of not being so easily able to approach it so perfunctorialy as one's own vernacular.<br /><br />Patricius, you must enlighten me, though: in what jurisdiction would one celebrate Charlesmass? I do not mean that as divisively as it sounds: never canonised by Rome, is he in the CofE calendar? I don't know, you see.<br /><br />It's a pity you don't worship at all, but having experienced similar rejections I quite understand. Doesn't the Office even attract you? (Or maybe I am just odd in having had that always 'call' me.)Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17605146531776846589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-19685879160854876032014-01-27T17:51:52.759+00:002014-01-27T17:51:52.759+00:00Some people accuse me of making stereotypes of tra...Some people accuse me of making stereotypes of traditionalists and that the kind of terrible people I describe here don't exist. But they do. I worshipped and socialised with traditionalists for five or six years!<br /><br />I have been to various Orthodox churches in London and all I can say about them is that they are very ethnic and, therefore, off-putting. I was at Ennismore Gardens (Moscow Patriarchate) once and walked out when this elderly Russian priest tried chanting in English, a language he clearly didn't understand very well. And they don't even say the Lord's Prayer properly there! How can they be "orthodox" if they can't even get that right?<br /><br />As I said, I don't currently worship anywhere, even at home. I am, however, going to the Banqueting House on Thursday for Charlesmass. Conspicuously the January kalendar of the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham is blank on 30th. I wonder why!Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-91622861225619835372014-01-27T17:06:58.642+00:002014-01-27T17:06:58.642+00:00You are only partially right on my background. I w...You are only partially right on my background. I was baptized a Catholic and grew up in the Catholic East (Ukrainian and Melkite). I have half-descended from Eastern (Galician) Poles. I fell away from the Catholic Church for a number of years and when I came back, some of my immediately family had converted to the Orthodox Church. Since Orthodoxy provided a liturgical-spiritual haven more aligned with what I had experienced growing up, I took the bait and went there, too -- for seven years. Then I came back, and my reasons why have been well-documented before.<br /><br />With that said, I don't make a fuss about it. I've been back in the Catholic fold for almost 3 years now. The difference between me and most bloggers who write on things Catholic and things Orthodox is that I am well-acquainted with both. (Arguably I am still "better acquainted" with Orthodoxy in America, though that's only because it's a very, very small world.)<br /><br />As for my comments on you and your blog, don't take them so seriously. I do think you overplay your hand when it comes to Western -- specifically Roman -- liturgy, but you're hardly alone in that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-91837574727648825372014-01-27T12:09:52.011+00:002014-01-27T12:09:52.011+00:00Yes, I know. That is so!Yes, I know. That is so!Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8192580971664762668.post-34770561044186227072014-01-27T09:15:22.953+00:002014-01-27T09:15:22.953+00:00Some of us do still take notice of you. And sympat...Some of us do still take notice of you. And sympathetically at that.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17605146531776846589noreply@blogger.com