I see that the highly intelligent Fr Zed (who clearly knows as much about Liturgy as a pig...no sorry, knows so much about Liturgy that yours truly, someone more than half his age and probably a ''heretic'' by his Traddie standards, can point out errors in his podcasts of Vespers - which seem to magically disappear whenever I point them out on Facebook!) has posted about concelebration. It seems that he is completely ignorant that concelebration is older and more praiseworthy than Low Mass, and has even posted that photo which I find so utterly repugnant to Liturgy it literally made me sick to my stomach when I first saw it - you know the one where all those priests are saying their private Masses when they could quite easily have High Mass instead...oh but wait, they won't get their fifty bob for having one High Mass, and so they have cheapened the Grace of God to reading a few prayers from a book inaudibly...ding-a-ling-ling, Mexican wave of the Sacrament, and Bob's your uncle - God's Grace procured at low low effort at Low Low Mass.
Hmmmm but the great conceited Fr Zed isn't interested in the views of mere lay people like me. With all due respect though, padre, in my experience lay people know a lot more about Liturgy than the clergy...in fact, the clergy are so woefully ignorant of Liturgy that I wonder that the seven years they spent in seminary did them any good at all!
Dear readers, Fr Zed is a Traddie and therefore knows nothing whatsoever about Liturgy. But then what do mere heretics like me know? I just sit at home reading the decrees of Popes and pointing out the obvious shortcomings of Traddieland logic, their hypocrisy and of course the want of consistency in podcasts of 1962 Vespers. I don't suck up to the clergy simply because they are clergy, unlike some - I don't suck up to anyone. Of course, insignificant bloggers like me are beneath the notice of the eminent Fr Zed, rather like the the confrontation of the Hobbit Merry and the Lord of the Ringwraiths - the Wraith-king heeded him no more than a worm in the mud.
Let it be known that when Traddieland finally collapses, unable to sustain the fantasy and pretence of obedience to Rome and their own ''initiative'' vis Summorum Pontificum, I'll be the first to gloat and proclaim that my views were right in the first place. May this conceited chap fall low with his American opinions, and so low that none can foresee his getting up again.
Patricius, are you interested in the priesthood? As a priest you could actually do something about liturgy.
ReplyDeletePatricius - sorry to play the age card but, when you have spent most of your adult life being vilified by your fellow Catholics because you aspire to a traditional form of the faith and to having your children discriminated against at convent school, your rants do not stack up to much.
ReplyDeleteI am grateful that we have priests such as Fr Zee. Whether he is right or wrong about vespers or concelebration does not matter too much to me. He is on the right bus, that's what matters.
I have no vocation to the priesthood, though I am discerning a possible vocation to the Subdiaconate...
ReplyDeleteWow... I'm this is pretty intense. In Columbus, there's a chapter of the SSPX which holds hard and fast to the pre-62 changes. Then there's a group down the road from them called the SSPV (Society of St. Pius V) who basically hold to the Tridentine Mass, properly speaking, which was promulgated and hammered down immediately after the Council. The problem is that when any kind of intellectual discussion breaks out, the SSPX - not known for their radical leftist tendencies! - always smacks down the SSPV because they are so ideological. The primary purpose of the Church, which is the Salvation of Souls, finds no interest among them whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteI won't claim to speak as if I know the authors of this blog or their intentions - that would be wildly presumptuous - but I would encourage any Catholic with technical skills to remember that the Evangelization of the Digital Continent (as Our Holy Father Benedict) has, as its primary purpose, the salvation of souls.
St. Theresa of Avila, after all, who said that she would "give her life for the smallest rubric in the Roman Missal" was more concerned with saving souls than commenting on them. Just an encouragement.
By the way, I know Fr. Zed, He has a STL in Patristics and has worked in the Roman Curia in various liturgical offices. He's a voracious reader and knows the liturgical history of the last 500 years as well as any liturgist out there. It's unwise to dismiss his learned commentary because of disagreement. Perhaps a dialogue makes more sense than a dismissal. Pax et Bonum
Thanks for being out here on the digital continent!
The photograph reminds me of the tableaux one used to see in the arcades at the end of seaside piers, before the piers started to get burned down... In those arcades the tableaux depicting various scences were quite clever mechanical devices that were operated by inserting coins - usually the old penny - and then sprang into life.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if one put a penny in a slot at the top of the altar the celebrants would all spring into action in a synchronised wave?
Patricius, I had precisely the same reaction as you to that photograph for largely the same reason.
ReplyDeleteOn the point of the subdiaconate, I do not know what opportunity there is for that within your own context but certainly as far as the role of the subdeacon goes in the Byzantine Rite - as one responsible for keeping the liturgy going and co-ordinating others' actions - you would be an excellent subdeacon. Your recollection and care for the detail of these things is an asset that you have that many actual subdeacons lack.
I only fear your reaction to those who haven't been properly trained. :-D
"I have no vocation to the priesthood, though I am discerning a possible vocation to the Subdiaconate..."
ReplyDeleteWho with...? The FSSP/SSPX/SSPV/CRMI/Orthodoxy?!
Canon Jerome, I wouldn't touch the SSPX or any traditionalist society with a mile-long barge pole; and since the Subdiaconate no longer exists in the Roman Church, having been suppressed by Paul VI almost 40 years ago, one would have to look elsewhere for the Subdiaconate. Trads would treat this as an inferior, transient sort of Order leading to the Priesthood rather than something permanent so Orthodoxy, or some other non-Western church, would be the answer...unless the Old Catholic Church ordains permanent Subdeacons :)
ReplyDeleteOld Roman Catholicism does indeed retain the tradition of a permanent subdiaconate...
ReplyDeleteFrom our website...
ReplyDeleteSUB-DEACON (Permanent): A layman with a vocation to serve the Church as a cleric (meaning he is bound by Canonical Law and the recitation of the Divine Office) but not as a Sacred Minister (i.e. deacon or priest) who assists in the celebration of the solemn offering of the Liturgy of the Church (Mass, Offices and Rites) in the Sanctuary. A Sub-deacon may also fulfil a pastoral role in the parish assisting the clergy as directed and working alongside a Pastoral Worker sharing in pastoral provision. It is his special prerogative to read/sing the Epistle at High Mass whenever it is celebrated in the parish in which he resides and to assist in such capacity around the Diocese when invited to do so. Is also permitted to administer the Blessed Sacrament.
Another classic from 'Z' here.
ReplyDeleteI trust Pimpernel will be as quick to pounce on 'Z' for his factual errors as he was on you Patricius.
I've seen that picture many times. I'd much rather see the priests counting the stipends for saying an individual low mass, than the current practice of priests concelebrating and counting that for individual stipends. But I guess at that point it's like preferring to have a broken arm over a broken leg.
ReplyDeletePatricius - I think you've found your spot.....The Old Catholic Church is right up your street :)
ReplyDelete