My new blog has now had well over 1,000 hits, and it's only over two weeks old. As you can see my ''average'' now (although it fluctuates a bit - the ''dip'' over the weekend was when I didn't post anything) is about 75 hits a day, which is more or less where I left off with Singulare Ingenium. Interestingly I get more Orthodox and High Church Anglican readers than Catholic ones - someone said the other day that this ought to be cause for concern, but I don't think so necessarily. The Orthodox have more liturgical sense generally than most Catholics, and I consider most Catholics to be heretics, in a state of de facto schism with their own liturgical tradition (the logical consequence of Papal interference in Liturgy and such ''traditionalist'' organisations as the Latin Mass Society, who deliberately pull the wool over the eyes of sincere faithful who long for Tradition - expecting Miranda and they're greeted by Caliban more often than not) anyway.
Do take the time to congratulate Fr Hunwicke on the anniversary of his priestly ordination.
Ah, but is Fr Hunwicke really a priest or just a High Church minister? ;-)
ReplyDeleteJoseph, I like to think he is. He is certainly not the most lay of laymen! And he has more liturgical sense than most priests ''validly'' consecrated by bishops in communion with Rome (using modern liturgical books)...
ReplyDeleteAs I said in my post ''Offer it up?'' - I just got silly ideas about validity out of my head ages ago - the externals of Liturgy matter just as much as the things you can't see. And it is my opinion that God withholds the Holy Ghost from most Catholic churches who use the New Rite simply because they don't do Liturgy properly.
But this is just my opinion - I am not the voice of the modern Catholic Church by any means.
I think it's his erudition, ergo his liturgical sense and knowledge, that sets him apart. They don't often make 'em like that anymore: lots of Anglican priests don't bother with the classics or the fathers, they just watch TV and read the Archbishop's Lent book and preach their sermons on that. We've lost interest in educating adult Christians it seems, from the pulpit or from wherever, and I've seen the heresy that results with my own eyes!! Combine it with bad liturgy and you have the slow, fitful death of the Cof E.
ReplyDeletePrecisely. The same is equally true on this side of the Tiber - pick any Catholic church at random and the likelihood is you'll have left in disgust less than half-way through Mass. I imagine that the Liturgy of St Thomas the Martyr is far superior to anything you'll find in most Catholic churches.
ReplyDeleteI had lunch with a friend I had been introduced to at a drinks party at St. Magnus the Martyr recently.
ReplyDeleteThe man I had lunch with had been a very good freind indeed of the late Mgr. A.N. Gilbey and we swapped many happy memories of the great man. When I first met Mgr. Gilbey in 1984 (I was actually introduced to him on the middle of a pedestrian crossing outside the Oratory by a very eccentric lady who had been Lady in Waiting to Queen Geraldine of the Albanians and who went around London with a little dog, Mitzi, in her bag) I made the mistake of thinking this highly erudite, liturgical and wonderful priest was how they all used to be.
It was only slowly that I realised Mgr. ANG always had been an exceptional man and must have been so in his youth as well as his later years. Whilst there have been some RC clergy who approach, though never meet, the Gilbey standard they are very rare indeed.
I suspect Fr. Hunwicke is in the very top rank of Anglo-Catholic clergy. Whilst in the past Anglican clergy were generally far better educated than their RC confreres this is no longer the case. Indeed it was Mrs. Hunwicke who corrected me last year when I expressed the opinion that all Anglcian clergy at least had to have a degree. Mrs. Hunwicke pointed out that many ordinands now do modules of a theology or pastoral course that allows them to wear hoods which, to the non-expert like myself, appear as Bachelor degree hoods.
Rubricarius, many thanks for your comment.
ReplyDeleteIn the ''good old days'' as a student at Heythrop, I had a discussion with a friend of mine, an erudite Seminarian with whom I studied Latin, who said that not all Catholic priests qualify these days with degrees in Theology. He said that the powers-that-be take into account the ''Cure-of-Ars'' factor when judging the situation of a seminarian who is clearly struggling academically.
I concede the fact that not all priests are suited to an academic life, but clerical education is of the utmost importance, and it is a matter of Canon Law that priests receive the best education, are well-versed in the Latin and Greek tongues (and any other language pertinent to their ministry) - how can the lay people be grounded in any truth except their pastor be an educated man?
Don't worry Patrick - This Low Church Charismatic who is enjoying full communion with (and is employed full time by) the see of Rome is reading!
ReplyDelete... and I consider most Catholics to be heretics, in a state of de facto schism with their own liturgical tradition
ReplyDeleteI don't think you do your own cause any good by statements like these.
Since how can a mere human being fathom what God does and does not? We only have the mystical body of Christ (i.e. the Catholic church) to rely on.
Max (if that is your real name!) I am glad you read this mad blog. I guess you don't know where to place me on the spectrum of your average Catholic. I am not neo-conervative apologist for the New Rite, I am not one of those ''conservative'' Catholics hardly interested in Liturgy, I am not a traditionalist, I am not a Modernist - where exactly do I fit on this odd spectrum?
ReplyDeleteHestor, I honestly think that - and I am not one to mince my words. At any rate I shall never communicate with most Catholics again.
Then you ask yourself where is your faith (or what's left of it) leading you to? Do you honestly think we believe in a God that is petty and would deprive the validity of the sacraments purely because they are post 1956 and does not fulfil what glean to be Tradition? On an unsuspecting faithful? Where does the indefectability of the church come into this (... and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it)? This is a soul-destroying Pharisaical approach to the faith and one which Our Lord rebuke those very people for. Your interest in perfecting and promoting Tradition in the liturgy is completely nullified by the bitter statements you make about others. If you cannot profess any love towards your neighbour, then the only person who has withholding the Holy Ghost from being sent down on yourself is your attitude (and not whether you attend a 1962 mass at a Catholic church or a pre-45 service at St. Dressy-up Anglican parish)
ReplyDeleteThere have been many who have gone down your route - a gradual decent from apostasy to eventual atheism. Do you really believe God is going to judge you on whether you snubbed the 1962/Novus Ordo and exclusively preferred everything pre-dating or whether you professed the faith, supplementing it with good works and lead others to do so?
I think it was you who said that a good dose of reality check can be a good thing and so this may need to be it.
Hestor, you're more than welcome to think whatever you like of me, whether this be an apostate and on some route to atheism or a divinely-called Prophet and ardent defender of Liturgy against the ravages of heathen men or whatever, but please don't label me a Pharisee for holding such dispositions as I do. The Pharisees are rather self-important traditionalists and LMS committee members.
ReplyDeleteAs for ''St. Dressy-up Anglican parish'' - at least they do Liturgy properly, which is more than can be said for most Catholic churches. You may want to spend your Sunday (in the hyperthetical absence of ''traditionalist'' parishes), out of obligation attending some happy-clappy New Rite mass down the road, but I would rather live something greater - Liturgy.
Living the liturgy should not make you bitter and conceited.
ReplyDeleteAgain - how can you see into the souls of other people? How would you know if an LMS committee member is far closer to God than someone who purports to "live in" the liturgy but is scathing of one's fellow brothers and sisters?
For the Record, the modernity is catching up with the Orthodox. Its not all hunky dory, in their neck of the woods. In terms of liturgical innovation they are catching up with Catholics real fast. You can see the cries from a lot of Orthodox blogs on the internet.
ReplyDeleteHere is one example
Most of your EO hits i suspect are Ad-orientem blog. Himself a traditionalist Catholic, before jumping ship to Eastern Orthodoxy. But of course that didn't solve the problem. Because They are experiencing the same troubles, only they are 'late comers' so to speak.
Or you can try this link which is
Which is admitedly a caricature (by the authors own admission) but nevertheless a good representation of various sundy problems for Orthodoxy in america.
''Catholic'', many thanks for your comment. Indeed, I have read of a gradual encroachment of ''modernism'' upon Orthodox doctrine and liturgy on The Orthodox Christian Information Centre.
ReplyDeleteIt is in this sense that the Ecumenical Movement comes into its own - liturgically speaking, in my opinion.
Thanks for the links.
"modernity is catching up with the Orthodox. Its not all hunky dory, in their neck of the woods. In terms of liturgical innovation they are catching up with Catholics real fast. "
ReplyDeleteCatholic, I understand the point you're trying to make here, but you won't make it effectively by this kind of overstatement. To conclude from goings-on in a vanishingly marginal situation (a western rite vicariate in the most liberal jurisdiction in the Church, dominated by ex-Evangelicals steeped in US religious consumer-culture) that Orthodoxy is "catching up real fast" on you, is - well, unconvincing, shall we say. The WOR experiment remains a highly debatable enterprise at best. Most of Orthodoxy is completely ignorant of its existence.